My take on newer stuff (downfall)

[fatlip]

For years i've been trying to figure out exactly what the fuck has been going on; and i've got it pretty much narrowed down. I just can't seem to put it into proper words. Everyone has been playing differently throughout the albums.. Some call it progression/evolution but i'm think it's strictly for producers/sales.

Guitar: For starters, tone. The guitar tone has thinned out to such a boring state that it shifted from rock to pop. There's is a huge difference in the EQ and it's gotten cleaner and cleaner from Transistor on. Over-compressing and heavy gating isn't really helping either. Maybe its my love for punk and hard rock where sloppy is character, and loose is a positive trait, that makes me think the tone has been headed downward. Need examples? Listen to these tracks in order:

1. Hydroponic [Rhythm]
2. Homebrew
3. Hive [Rhythm]
4. T&P Combo [Lead]
5. Transistor (this is where it starts to tighten)
6. Sever (this album is where it starts to overly tighten; this song retains heavy low-end)
7. I Told Myself
8. Still Dreaming [Rhythm] (This is a heavy song, why aren't these chords thicker?)
9. Thank Your Lucky Stars [Rhythm] (Overly tight)
10. Never Ending Summer
11. Hey You (it's a step back in the right direction but still sounds kind of hollow)
12. Wild Nights [Rhythm]

..Of course it's not overly noticeable when listened to in order. Now, go from 1, 12, 2, 10, 3, 7 and it'll be way more noticable back to back.

P-Nut plays a 5-string, we all know this. Throughout the years they seem to completely rely on him for the low end of the song and let the guitar just cut through the mix in the mid-range. That's nice and all, but again, distinguishes between rock and pop. Rock is full-range guitar driven and is where 311 stood for the first several albums.

Now we move on to the riffage. Songs like "Lucky," although repetitive, switch phrases quickly making the song sound more interesting than anything they've been doing lately. More recently, songs like "Trouble," for example, just take one riff and repeat it over and over and over and over and over and rely on vocals to attempt to rescue the song. It's the curse of pop. It's very obvious if you listen to the albums and remove the vocals in your head. There are progressively less and less songs that sound acceptable as instrumentals. As time goes on, the songs become more and more vocally-driven. This, of course, is beating a dead horse. Everyone knows this. Just listen to the types of riffs being played though. Starting with From Chaos, the riffs start to get chunky. If we were still talking about tone, this would be a good thing. Unfortunately, we're talking about rhythm. Guitar playing that relies on spaced rhythms instead of straight playing gives the songs more of that jumpy feel that they love for live shows.

I find it strange that it hit so hard in From Chaos and was barely noticeable beforehand even though it did exist. Examples? Sure!

You Get Worked, Full Ride, I Told Myself, Hostile Apostle, Uncalm, Reconsider Everything, Other Side of Things, Mix It Up, India Ink, Never Ending Summer, Something Out of Nothing, Time Bomb, Sunset in July

Songs that overly use it but get the pass due to its integral role in the song's over-alll rhythmic feel: Wake Your Mind Up, Crack the Code, Jackpot, Wild Nights, Rock On

P-Nut has been playing the same sort of shit from day one, as he should. He is the rhythm of the band along with Chad (I'll get to Chad next). For all these songs listed, guitar parts took the easy way out and just followed the rhythm of the bass, whereas a full chord, or noodling, would have worked just as well; even with a similar strumming pattern.

Chad.. oh, Chad. Your parts have gotten simpler and simpler from album to album. There's not much I can say overall. Recording-wise, the drums increasingly clear; which is great for drums. There have always been songs where chad just plays a basic beat, but they've become way more abundant as albums have passed. Listen to the creativity in these songs: [Insert entire tracklist for Music here], Nutsymptom, Applied Science, Taiyed, Silver, Lose, Offbeat Bare Ass, Random, Guns, Purpose, Don't Stay Home, Sweet, Next, Prisoner, Beautiful Disaster, Jupiter, Use of Time, No Control, Light Years, Starshines, Stealing Happy Hours, Old Funk, Space Funk, Come Original, Can't Fade Me, Strong All Along, Sever, Evolution, Blizza, Cali Soca, Seal the Deal, Crack the Code, Other Side of Things, What Do You Do?, Don't Tread on Me, Frolic Room, There's Always an Excuse, Mix It Up, Get Down, Sun Come Through.

There's a sharp drop-off at Evolver and so many missed opportunities like Beyond the Gray Sky, and Two Drops in the Ocean. Both of those songs are as spacious as can be and leave soooooo much room to fuck around.

Sure, that list goes up through Uplifter. But if you notice as you progress through the list, the creativity within the songs' drum parts are less and less impressive. The sad part is that these are the songs that are being singled out for their creativity! It also seems like the B-Sides have the best drum parts too. Funny how that works.

It's hard to judge the quality of song writing as well because their sound morphs from album to album and every so often they throw a wildcard in there that show they're still trying to innovate and play stuff that's original (Flowing, Sometimes Jacks Rule the Realm, There's Always an Excuse, Waiting, Two Drops in the Ocean, Get Down, And a Ways to Go, etc.).

This is all I got for now but I'm sure I'll be able to add to it.

I don't feel I should have to state this, but I will anyway: These are my opinions. They're heavily backed by examples and personal experience. Therefore I feel they weigh a bit more than "oh this new album sux lolol."

All this being said, they're still my favorite band and I still do like the new albums, but these are the things, in my mind, that could be recaptured with a bit of willpower; along with the admission that their existing fanbase is the one to which they should be catering. Young blood is going to be harder to attain at shows the older they get. That fact needs to be accepted and accommodated to if they want to survive.

Last week at the Jones Beach show, was the first time I've seen them there where the entire ampetheater didn't look sold out. Several rows of empty seats remained. It was sad, but it happens.

TL;DR: Admit it, you don't have anything better to do. Take 3 minutes out of your day and read this shit.

Addendum #1: Upon re-listening to that first playlist I posted (regarding guitar tone), I noticed another pop-heavy issue: the vocals become progressively louder compared to the rest of the music as years progress. I understand the fact they're trying to appeal to a public audience like radio-listeners where this sort of thing is necessary. However, if they respect the rock, just use radio edits and singles for that kind of stuff. It's not against the law to have multiple mixes for the same songs. Take cues from Foo Fighters, where the music is still the priority in the mix. Both vocalists have other roles in the band, there's no need for them to 'feel bad' about having their voices dropped a bit in the mix.

[Jordan311]

[Smoke]

I agree with you to a certain extent. I think they were more willing to try new things back in the days when they were a young band. Now that they're professional and have many people, and their families, relying on them I wonder if they feel more of a need to just "go with what works".

I wonder if any of that is true, if so it may suggest that they don't understand their fan base very well anymore. Their older music was much more raw, good raw. Now the new stuff is over produced. Still good, but the bar was set high by them over a decade ago.

I do understand why they're doing it, I just think it might be time to go back to their roots. Maybe they've tried and failed and we never knew about it.

Also remember more than a few of them are working on other projects, this could be why the music is less exciting.

[fatlip]

it's not a matter of if the stuff is true or not.. it's true, you can hear it in the examples. i guess the reasons are up for debate but not the content!

i feel there's still hope though. they have the ability to write the good music still. "and a ways to go" is, imo, one of their best songs.

i was just really sad to see them using a backing track the other night. i've heard some sound effect stuff being used live but they had an entire guitar track for a backtrack during "sunset in july" the rhythm guitar was still going even though both guitarists on stage were playing leads.

i also have a really strong feeling they add crowd cheering to their backtrack. about 99.9999% sure that happened. it's pretty low in volume but it adds to an illusion that feeds on gang mentality.

one of the *very few* things i learned at my first year of college (five town, worst school ever) is that when you're putting down a mix that sounds kinda thin, you either add a crowd in the background or just straight up white-noise. it subconsciously livens up the mix.

again, over production, like you said.

[jaus311]

I agree with the OP. I was particularly intrigued by your take on Chad. I'd add Thank Your Lucky Stars to your "creativity list." Curious to hear your take on his drum sound since DTOM. His drum parts have undeniably gotten simpler with each album. Pair that with the thinned out drum sound and that's a huge part of the downfall I think.

[fatlip]

fair enough! TYLS can be considered creative.. but again it's mainly a single beat repeated with little variation other than the sporadic fills thrown in there. maybe he was just trying to rescue the lame chord progression as for his sound, i'm not positive the drums thinned out at all.. but they def sound different. there's actually a bit more room sound included recently (unlike Transistor which was mic-on-skin). that also makes the drums sound a bit lower in the overall mix. it's a delicate balance.

do you know when the Orange County -> Yamaha transition occurred? that could be a major factor. the snare alone is the difference between night and day.. listen to: Thank Your Lucky Stars, then listen to Something Out of Nothing.. hear the snare? goes from a tight, snappy OC piccolo sound to an arena-rock-style snare. i'm not sure exactly what gear he uses now. but it's definitely an obvious change. could play into their choice to focus on songs that work well live.

good observation!

[Alexnova]

Great post.

They should release an album of demos, like Springsteen's Nebraska or Prince's Dirty Mind. Many of the demos from DTOM are superior because it lacks that polish. It always amazes me when 311 cite The Clash as one of their biggest influences because if that was true they would be alot more raw. They need to loosen up a bit, make mistakes in the recording studio and jam it up a bit. 311 is at its best when they jam and interpret their own songs differently live. You can still have excellent songcraft when jamming.

Anyway, Bob Rock needs to go. His production is too immaculate and polished. Smoke is definitely right that the new stuff is overproduced.

What has always baffled me about 311 is they have such a large fanbase that they don't need to make bad pop music to be commercially viable. Afraid of alienating the "Down" and "Amber" fanbase? Who fucking cares? You hear it in their interviews of late how much they want to progress their music forward, and make an album like Dark Side of the Moon but it never happens. Transistor itself is a very messy, uneven and self-indulgent record but it does sound better than the rest of their albums which I think Chad mentioned they recorded in a room of carpet. But even that 311 live reigns supreme, they just need to emulate that in the studio and stop trying to fine tune things so much where it finally ends up sounding anemic and not enough verve.

[dj3stripes]

regardless, no matter what gets released next, not everybody will be happy about it.

My question is, what would it take for them to release next, that would make you give up on 311 altogether?

[logosteel]

That ship sailed with reggae got soul.

[Element]

yes, chad has been lazy as fuck these last few albums. he's been reduced to just keeping time now.

i think it's also due to the fact that the newer songs lack funkiness in general

[Element]

regardless, no matter what gets released next, not everybody will be happy about it.

My question is, what would it take for them to release next, that would make you give up on 311 altogether?

i gave up on them after don't tread on me.

fact is these guys are over the hill and far away, four bad albums in a row.

[fatlip]

well like i said.. i still like the new stuff.. and granted the next album is complete horseshit.. i won't give up on their old stuff. it'll still be some of my favorite music ever. these are just observations.. i'm not exactly bitching about it.

i mean, i am little. but i'm backing it up with facts!

[dj3stripes]

So if people have given up on them, why are they bitching about it? I'm not saying you shouldn't feel the way you do , but what's the point?

[fatlip]

because yolo




srsly though, what's the point of expressing any opinion? what's the point of even having this site?

[Alexnova]

The way I see it, they peaked early, like most artists, and should have retired. They are what in their 40s now? They are pretending to be something they are not anymore, which happens by the loss of being youthful. Which is a little ironic considering their large fanbase is predominantly young.

I cringe everytime I see the Rolling Stones tour live again. They are too old and I don't think they've handled it very well. The only artists I can think of who have done great things past that age is Dylan and Reed.

What I don't understand is why 311 keeps making these pedestrian albums, they have a large cult of followers who will eat up anything they serve so they should be free to experiment instead of trying to be that next alt rock hit on KROQ.

Are they trying to prove they are still relevant? I don't know.

[dj3stripes]

because yolo




srsly though, what's the point of expressing any opinion? what's the point of even having this site?

I wasn't trying to oppress anybody's opinions, I'm trying to understand the point of complaining about it if some have given up hope for any new material (as element stated it was DTOM). Is it for the sake of bitching out loud? It's a dead horse that's been beaten pretty regularly for nearly 10 years, yet people still come here, download the tracks, buy the albums, and talk about them. If it's so torturous and the threshold of tolerance has been had, why? Trolling?

This wasn't meant to be a post hijack, but there have been many people who have stopped coming here solely on the fact that there's next to nothing positive being discussed anymore. I thought the OP had great points/facts.

As far as the fan base is concerned, I'm torn between agreeing with you and disagreeing. The crowds are smaller at the shows, period. Clearly they're doing what they want to now that they're rid of the cancer that is Volcano/Sony. I'm with everybody that says things are different but is it bad? Maybe it's the listener still trying to cling to the past. I almost think the reason that they've been going in the direction they have been is for the fact that it'd be easy to make another Grassroots or blue. That looks terrible when I read it but I don't have any idea, I guess I'm just not as concerned about it and simply enjoy their catalog too much to get negative.

[bbshorts]

I wasn't trying to oppress anybody's opinions, I'm trying to understand the point of complaining about it if some have given up hope for any new material (as element stated it was DTOM). Is it for the sake of bitching out loud? It's a dead horse that's been beaten pretty regularly for nearly 10 years, yet people still come here, download the tracks, buy the albums, and talk about them. If it's so torturous and the threshold of tolerance has been had, why? Trolling?

I agree with the OP. It's not like the music is terrible. It is decent but it could be so much better. They just need to mix it up and be funky again, that's all. Not trolling or anything. I love 311, but I'm hoping with each album that their best days are not behind them. My mind hasn't been blown yet (i.e. they haven't topped Transistor/Soundsystem), but there's always the possibility of it in the future.

[Shiny]

great read, fatlip. i'm feeling it.

The way I see it, they peaked early, like most artists, and should have retired. They are what in their 40s now? They are pretending to be something they are not anymore, which happens by the loss of being youthful.

Idk man, they obviously have the motivation to continue to write music and perform it. Should it really be a requirement for rock musicians to 'hang it up' once they reach a certain age and force themselves to sit around for the rest of their lives with their thumbs in their ass? Even if they aren't as creative, lost youthful exuberance, might be a bit misguided in their approach... music isn't just a "young person's profession" and this statement is whack.

[fatlip]

The way I see it, they peaked early, like most artists, and should have retired. They are what in their 40s now? They are pretending to be something they are not anymore, which happens by the loss of being youthful.

Idk man, they obviously have the motivation to continue to write music and perform it. Should it really be a requirement for rock musicians to 'hang it up' once they reach a certain age and force themselves to sit around for the rest of their lives with their thumbs in their ass? Even if they aren't as creative, lost youthful exuberance, might be a bit misguided in their approach... music isn't just a "young person's profession" and this statement is whack.

agreed. going by that, every artist should quit at 28, if they didn't already opt out of living by that time. *most* creativity dies at that age.. with a few exceptions (311, rx bandits, etc). that's also the main reason they're my 2 favorite bands.

also, alex, you left out the who =P they still fucking own it live

[Alexnova]

You're right music isn't just for the youth, but rock music is and it captures that youthful energy. It's truly embarrassing to see a bunch of dinosaurs on stage trying to channel some sort of prehistoric incarnation (not saying 311, anything but) while they have their relics already emblazoned at the R&R museum.

Exceptions are the rule to everything but for the vast majority of great rock music it gets composed by young people. Some artists need to hang it up, others get lucky if they can reach peaks in their sixties. Or some get to live off the ing nostalgia that has permeated with many bands that get reunited again. People aren't going for the music, rather, they go for the nostalgia. There is a bad trend in my generation right now that gets overtly nostalgic.

Perhaps its best to adjust the expectations for 311 if they continue to record and perform. You can't keep approaching a new album as if it's the next Grassroots or Transistor, these guys have grown up. Well actually if Nick stops dressing like a hipster and realize he's 42 not 22, but they've changed, mellowed out even. The music reflects that. It's why I'm so interested in Dr. Dre's Detox album, whenever the fuck it's going to be released because I want to see if he'll cut stuff like "Fuck You" or "Pause 4 Porno" but I doubt it. His second son died a few years back so these kind of life experiences could definitely have an impact. You don't think Nick or the rest of the band having kids is indirectly affecting the music here?

I'll give them credit for stuff like Uplifter because instead of penning lyrics about mortality, instead they are celebrations for life. It's an interesting paradox. As far as instrumentally, yeah they are taking it easy and phoning it in. That fire to make a statement or get famous/rich is gone. They have their money and islands, and they know their fanbase will buy whatever mediocrity they release. Why be motivated to do anything new when your formula is successful? That ambition comes early on in a career and for many groups that do make it big, what more do you have to prove?

I'll make a bold sort of prediction here, give it maybe less than five years and they'll go on indefinite hiatus. Focus more on their families, work on a few projects on the side (which we are seeing both of) and just taking it easy.